It's official. The Catholic Knight is retired.  I'm hanging up the helmet and passing the torch. There will be no more articles, no more commentaries, no more calls to action. THIS BLOG IS CLOSED. I've spent a very long time thinking about this, I believe the time has come, and is a bit overdue.  I want to thank my readers for everything, but most especially for your encouragement and your willingness to go out there and fight the good fight. So, that being the case, I've spend the last several weeks looking for bloggers who are fairly active, and best represent something akin to the way I think and what I believe.  I recommend the following blogs for my readers to bookmark and check on regularly. Pick one as your favourite, or pick them all. They are all great..... In His Majesty's Service, THE CATHOLIC KNIGHT

Tuesday, November 10, 2009


THE CATHOLIC KNIGHT: The Anglican Apostolic Constitution has been published by Rome, and a new era in Church history has begun -- the era of Anglican Catholic Renewal! Being an Evangelical convert to Catholicism myself, I spent about a year in a moderately conservative Episcopal parish before swimming the Tiber. It was the Anglican love for catholic liturgy and form that opened my eyes to the beauty of the Catholic Church just before the turn of the millennium. So 'The Catholic Knight' has a special interest in the development of this Anglican reunification with Rome.

First let me say this. The future of Anglicanism lies squarely within the Catholic Church. The Protestant Anglican Communion (PAC) and the Archbishop of Canterbury are now defunct. I call it the "Protestant" Anglican Communion (PAC) because that is exactly what it is - Protestant. Granted, many Anglicans show a love and affection for all things catholic, and they deserve full recognition for that. One could possibly say they are "catholic" only in the extreme lesser sense, because they embrace many catholic practices. However, most Anglicans reject the authority of Rome, and while that does not negate their catholicism in and of itself, their lack of valid holy orders does. Anglicans have a 'catholic' style of religion, but the national provinces of the Anglican Communion are essentially Protestant churches. Therefore, the Anglican Communion is essentially a Protestant organization. Hence I call it the "Protestant Anglican Communion" or just PAC.

Now the reason why the future of Anglicanism lies squarely in Rome and not the PAC is because the PAC has demonstrated a complete inability to police it's own provinces and protect those who object to the liberalizing trends of modernist relativism. The PAC has effectively embraced the ordination of female bishops and homosexual bishops simply by it's inability (or refusal) to jettison those diocese that engage in this practice. So what is the future of the PAC? Simply put, it's going to be more of the same - a lot more of the same! In fact, we can expect the liberalizing trends of northern provinces within the PAC to accelerate in the years ahead as more and more conservatives leave the communion for other churches, or to join the Catholic Church via the Anglican Ordinariates.

Rome will preserve Anglican tradition far better than Canterbury ever could. How do I know that? Simple, we have over a thousand years of example. The Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church have operated in union with Rome, and with nearly complete autonomy, for a millennium. When we think of Eastern Rites, our minds often default to the Eastern Orthodox, who are not currently in union with Rome. However, what many people don't know is that a lot of Eastern Catholic churches refused to break with Rome, or else they chose to reunite with Rome after the initial schism back in 1054 AD. Those churches that remain in union with Rome are virtually indistinguishable from Eastern Orthodox churches, and yet they are fully Catholic in the sense that they are in full communion with the pope. The same will be the case with the Anglican Ordinariates, and thirty years from now, when the PAC is nothing more than a liberal shell of the great Christian body it once was, Anglican Ordinariates will be growing strong and leading the way for Catholics in the English-speaking world. By that time, the Anglican Ordinariates will be more "Anglican" than the PAC, and just as "catholic" as Rome itself.

The full text of the Anglican Apostolic Constitution can be viewed on the Vatican website HERE. What I provide below are excerpts, with my own commentary....
I. §1 Personal Ordinariates for Anglicans entering into full communion with the Catholic Church are erected by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith within the confines of the territorial boundaries of a particular Conference of Bishops in consultation with that same Conference.

§3 Each Ordinariate possesses public juridic personality by the law itself (ipso iure); it is juridically comparable to a diocese.
Ordinariates are a lot like diocese. They will be erected by Rome itself, working together with national Catholic bishop conferences, to establish these ordinariates within their territories. They will certainly overlap existing diocese, and each ordinariate will have it's own "Ordinary" (or bishop) who will govern that ordinariate with full episcopal authority, answering directly to Rome.
§4 The Ordinariate is composed of lay faithful, clerics and members of Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, originally belonging to the Anglican Communion and now in full communion with the Catholic Church, or those who receive the Sacraments of Initiation within the jurisdiction of the Ordinariate.
Effectively, you become an "Anglican Catholic" (basically a "Roman Catholic" but with an additional Anglican identity) and in full communion with the pope, if you enter the Catholic Church through an Anglican Ordinariate parish. Now in regards to regular Roman Catholics who wish to join an Anglican Ordinariate, Fr. Phillips at his Anglican Use blog does a good job addressing this issue here.
§5 The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the authoritative expression of the Catholic faith professed by members of the Ordinariate.
Just in case there was any doubt, Anglican Catholic Ordinariates are fully Catholic, in full communion with the pope of Rome, and the beliefs are 100% identical.
III. Without excluding liturgical celebrations according to the Roman Rite, the Ordinariate has the faculty to celebrate the Holy Eucharist and the other Sacraments, the Liturgy of the Hours and other liturgical celebrations according to the liturgical books proper to the Anglican tradition, which have been approved by the Holy See, so as to maintain the liturgical, spiritual and pastoral traditions of the Anglican Communion within the Catholic Church, as a precious gift nourishing the faith of the members of the Ordinariate and as a treasure to be shared.
The Anglican "Book of Common Prayer" has already been revised and approved by Rome under the new title of "Book of Divine Worship." A free online PDF version can be acquired HERE. It is expected that a newer revision will eventually be published after the new Ordinariates have been formed, and a general conference is convened among the new Anglican ordinary bishops to further define and propagate their traditions. Of course this new revision will have to be approved by Rome as well. The Anglican Catholic mass is in many ways similar to the traditional Roman Rite mass (extraordinary form), however it is all in traditional high English, and it includes some things that are particularly unique to Anglican tradition. It also excludes a few things which are particularly unique to Roman tradition. The same could be said for the Anglican Divine Office (or "Liturgy of the Hours").
§ 2. The Ordinary, in full observance of the discipline of celibate clergy in the Latin Church, as a rule (pro regula) will admit only celibate men to the order of presbyter. He may also petition the Roman Pontiff, as a derogation from can. 277, §1, for the admission of married men to the order of presbyter on a case by case basis, according to objective criteria approved by the Holy See.
The rule of celibacy applies identically to the Anglican Ordinariates as it does the the Byzantine Catholic Rite, and other Eastern Catholic rites. Typically celibate men are admitted as candidates for Holy Orders. However, married men (men already married that is) may apply for Holy Orders on a case by case basis. It is presumed that at least some will be admitted, however we can expect celibacy to be the common norm for Anglican Catholic priests, just as it is for Byzantine Catholic priests. There is no reason, whatsoever, to believe that this permission will lead to priests getting married, as some in the press have theorized. This tradition is 100% compatible with eastern Catholic traditions and the Roman Catholic tradition up until the Second Lateran Council in 1139 AD.
§ 5. Candidates for Holy Orders in an Ordinariate should be prepared alongside other seminarians, especially in the areas of doctrinal and pastoral formation. In order to address the particular needs of seminarians of the Ordinariate and formation in Anglican patrimony, the Ordinary may also establish seminary programs or houses of formation which would relate to existing Catholic faculties of theology.

VII. The Ordinary, with the approval of the Holy See, can erect new Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life, with the right to call their members to Holy Orders, according to the norms of canon law. Institutes of Consecrated Life originating in the Anglican Communion and entering into full communion with the Catholic Church may also be placed under his jurisdiction by mutual consent.

VIII. § 1. The Ordinary, according to the norm of law, after having heard the opinion of the Diocesan Bishop of the place, may erect, with the consent of the Holy See, personal parishes for the faithful who belong to the Ordinariate.

XII. For judicial cases, the competent tribunal is that of the Diocese in which one of the parties is domiciled, unless the Ordinariate has constituted its own tribunal, in which case the tribunal of second instance is the one designated by the Ordinariate and approved by the Holy See.
Yes, you read that right! The Anglican Ordinary bishop may erect his own seminaries, institutes of consecrated life (holy orders), parishes and tribunals, all in cooperation with Rome and having heard the opinion of the Roman Rite diocesan bishop this may effect.

In effect, what we have is a "church within the Church" fully governed by the pope and the norms of canon law. Also, we have the makings of a whole new rite (or the resurgence of an old rite) within the Catholic Church, should it ever come to that at some point in the distant future. At present the status of "Ordinariate" was far more than anyone expected and is more than satisfying to the Anglicans involved. The rites and privileges they've been given within the Catholic Church are nothing short of amazing!

'The Catholic Knight' predicts this will have a profound effect on Catholics in the English-speaking world, though maybe not right away. Time will be the main factor here. Anglican Ordinariates will prove to be both liturgically traditional, and profoundly orthodox on doctrinal matters, just as they already have proved in the United States where "Anglican Use" parishes have existed for some thirty years. The effect of Anglican Ordinariates will call all Catholics to a more traditional and orthodox expression of the Catholic faith in the English-speaking world. Indeed, the creation of Anglican Ordinariate parishes will not only be attractive to Anglicans within the PAC, but also some Roman Catholics disgusted with the liberal practices and teachings typically found in many Roman Catholic parishes these days. Thus it is completely reasonable to assume that future Anglican Catholic parishes will consist of a mixture of parishioners coming from both the Anglican tradition, and regular visitors from the Roman Catholic tradition. Anglican Ordinariates in England and the United States are effectively as good as established, simply because of the presence of many Anglicans already in full-communion with the Roman Catholic Church in these areas. More nations will soon follow.
If you wish to join an Anglican Catholic parish, or would like to start one in your area, use these contacts below for more information...

Inside the United States contact:
Outside the United States contact:


blackshama said...

Anglicanism will be restored only under the Bishop of Rome's primacy and love. The English Church was born of a Pope's daring move to send Augustine to England. An English king's infidelity sent the English Church into suffering and the destruction of many a thing of beauty in England. The English Church is now being restored by another Pope's daring move that goes beyond ecumenism but to the heart of Christ. Praise to our Lord Jesus the Christ for giving us Holy Father Benedict XVI!

It is likely that a restored Anglicanism will also restore Roman and Eastern Catholicism by helping us to recover Tradition.

Thus I praise God that Choral Evensong will now be sung in Catholic churches. Cranmer's English in all its beauty will be redeemed.

The prophecy of Blessed Edmund Campion is being fulfilled in our seeing. "So the faith was planted: So it must be restored."

And the intercession of the martyrs, holy men and women of England, the Glory of England, the island of saints, and the most devoted child of the See of Peter; have not been in vain. God has heard our prayers.

blackshama said...

Sir Knight

Our Holy Father Benedict was generous indeed. Imagine he will preserve the Anglican Tradition even the Anglican synodical tradition as long as it is faithful to Catholic belief! We are amazed since Anglican synods have been at the root of why the Anglican Communion is disintegrating as these synods chose the morally relativist route.

Also the norms that ex Anglican bishops can become Ordinaries and exercise the bishop's office and even use episcopal insignia are indeed extremely generous. Even married Anglican bishops can continue in their ministry as bishops although they can only be priests as ancient tradition dictates. They can still wear their rochets and chimeres.

This generosity is born of our Holy Father's love and nothing more.

Carlos said...

Dear Catholic Knight,

I too was an Anglican for a while before being received back into the Church. One of your observations caught my attention.

"First let me say this. The future of Anglicanism lies squarely within the Catholic Church."

I found this interesting mostly because of the implications it held. I was having a conversation with a really good friend of mine last night regarding the Anglican constitution. He's known me since I've been an Anglican. What I found funny was he was arguing for more leniency regarding the Anglican heritage than I was! He was upset as to why Anglicans did not receive their own rite. The constitution makes it clear they are not their own rite and are merely a variation of the Roman Rite. That said, your quote about them being fully catholic seems to attest to them being a particular church of the catholic church. If you believe Anglicans are "Catholic" then why shouldn't they be their own "English Church" in communion with Rome? The constitution said for ecumenical and other reasons this isn't so. Perhaps Anglicans are being treated as special Protestants more than schismatic catholics?

The Prayerbook is a revision of the Sarum Rite of Salisbury. Until the return of the Catholic Church in the 19th century, the English have had a native rite different from the Roman Rite on mainland Europe. This could attest to Anglicans being their own rite. However, with the advent of the Novus Ordo borrowing from the Anglican prayerbook, the two masses now seem less and less dissimilar. So I guess the case could be made now that Anglicans are part of the Roman. I find it a little weak, since the Mass of Paul VI is based on the Anglican Mass and not the other way around.

I was just wondering, what are you thoughts on this whole thing? Do you think Anglicans should have their own Archbishop and be their own church? I told my friend, this constitution is just laying the groundwork and there is always the potential for change in the future.

The Catholic Knight said...

Carlos, in my opinion the establishment of Ordinariates is a preparation for the restoration of a full Anglican Rite in the distant future.

The problem with that right now has to do with the status of Anglican orders. They are invalid. In other words, Anglican "priests" are not really priests in the apostolic sense, and the same goes for Anglican "bishops." That is why the Anglican Communion, while possessing many catholic characteristic, is still very much a Protestant community. You cannot make a Catholic "Rite" out of an organization that has no valid clergy.

In order for the Anglican Rite to reemerge, there must be a period of time in which there are authentic Anglican clergy as well as authentic Anglican tradition. So what we see here with the ordinariates, in my opinion, is the opportunity for those Anglican holy orders to grow and flourish. Sometime in the distant future, the status of an Anglican Rite will inevitably arise again.

As for the relation of the Anglican liturgy to the Novus Ordo, which as you correctly said "borrows from Anglican liturgy," I see a clear divergence in the not-too-distant future.

Pope Benedict XVI has a committee working behind closed doors on the revision of the Roman Missal. It is expected that this new Roman Missal will revitalize the Roman Rite in the new mass. In other words, the new Roman mass will eventually look a lot more like the old Roman mass. In addition, the use of Latin will eventually become more commonplace in the new Roman Missal especially during the consecration.

In addition to that, many new Roman Catholic seminarians have little interest in the Novus Ordo, and are wanting to celebrate the old Roman Rite exclusively. That being the case, the future of the Roman Catholic Church is clearly going to be a return to traditional Latin, and over the course of a few decades, the celebration of mass in the vernacular will be less common, especially in the English-speaking world where liturgical abuses have a history of being excessive.

So in thirty years time we can expect to see the full Roman Rite in Latin become the "ordinary form" and a revised Novus Ordo, that looks a lot more like the full Roman Rite, become the "extraordinary form." This would be the complete flip-flop from the way things are now. In such an environment the Anglican Ordinariates would do extremely well in the English-speaking world, especially among those English-speaking Catholics who have no desire to attend a Latin mass.

So in a sense, what the Holy Father may be doing is preparing the English-speaking Catholic world for the inevitable return of Latin to the everyday Roman mass. Simultaneously he is making full provision for those Catholics who have no interest in the use of Latin, by restoring the Anglican Catholic traditions and clergy.

It is my opinion, and I am convinced of this, that in half a century time, the Anglican Catholic Use will be the normal liturgical form for English-speaking Catholics in the English-speaking world. While the Traditional Latin Mass will be the less common form of liturgy in use, while the Novus Ordo liturgy will be virtually nonexistent in the English-speaking world. Instead the Novus Ordo liturgy (revised to match the full Roman Rite) will become more commonly seen in the Spanish and French speaking world, as well as other languages.

Carlos said...

Do you forsee with the influx of new Anglicans coming into communion with Rome, the BODW will be revised significantly? I was a little disheartened when I first saw the book a few years back that it looked more or less like the 1979 prayerbook with some additions and subtractions.

Lancelot Andrewes press recently finished a project which created a Book of Common Prayer for the Liturgy of St. Tikhon in the Western Rite of the Orthodox Church. It looks pretty slick. Do you see the BODW to have continued usage or only for an interim

Traditional Mother said...

As a cradle Catholic married to a convert from the Episcopal church this is beyond exciting. Your posting is very insightful regarding our future. I assure you there are many such as myself who long to worship in a more beautiful, traditional manner. I homeschool using a very rigorous classical Catholic program based on the Trivium and Quadrivium. My daughter and many other young children are learning Latin and Greek from an early age. This is the beginning of an amazing renaissance!

The Catholic Knight said...

Carlos, I imagine everything will be on the table when it comes time for the revision of the 'Book of Divine Worship.'. Perhaps you can forward a copy of this book you mention to 'Our Lady of Atonement' Anglican Use parish in San Antonio Texas. The priests there are very approachable and would probably welcome your suggestion. Since that parish happens to be the flagship parish of the Anglican Use liturgy, they will have a lot of pull in the new Anglican Ordinariates.

Anonymous said...

Fr, I am a protestant Anglo-Catholic priest who is coming home! I have contacted Fr Stravinskas and he is helping me. Praise the Lord!!

I am married with 5 kids and 1 on the way. This move is both scary and exciting and I now must walk by faith not by site.

Please pray for me.


David S said...

In your post you suggest that "Theoretically speaking, any Roman Catholic who chose to identify with the Anglican Ordinariates, and began regularly receiving the third sacrament of initiation (holy communion) from an Anglican Ordinariate priest, according to Anglican Catholic liturgical norms, that Roman Catholic would effectively BECOME an Anglican Catholic!"

But that does not seem to be the case since those wishing to join the ordinariate are required to apply "in writing". Art. 5, no. 1 of the Complementary Norms states that: "Those baptized previously as Catholics outside the Ordinariate are not ordinarily eligible for membership, unless they are members of a family belonging to the Ordinariate."

The conclusion seems to be that even if Catholics attend Mass and receive communion at Masses celebrated under the ordinariate, they reman members of their normal parishes and dioceses and are subject to their diocesan Bishop for all the other sacraments and in matters of Church discipline.

Am I reading that correctly?

Fr. David Streit, SVD - Rome

The Catholic Knight said...

Dear Fr. David Streit,

Thank you for your observation. Now I am a bit confused. It looks as if I may have interpreted this matter very poorly, and will have to make a revision now.

Question; there are surly many Roman Catholics (especially in the United States) who have sought refuge in the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church over the last 30 years simply because they could not tolerate the relativist trends in the Episcopal Church USA. (Such was the case with myself in particular, and I know there are many more.) A good number of these people long for their Anglican traditions but have been unable to return to them due the the relativist problem described above, and the lack of full-communion with Rome among Episcopal churches. Many of these Catholics would love to be reestablished with their Anglican roots in a fully Catholic setting. Yet they may not have any family members involved in an Anglican community of any sort. That being the case, how could such a Catholic be incorporated into an Anglican-Catholic community in full union with Rome. Surely there must be a way?

I will consult my sources, and if you have any more information as to how this might take place, please don't hesitate to post it here. Thank you and God bless.

The Catholic Knight

Raphael said...

In my humble and uneducated opinion, I think the idea of an "English Rite" (as long as there is still an Anglican Church not in communion with Rome, it can't really be called an "Anglican Rite") is a little far fetched. The key to the East is diversity, but the key to the West has always been unity. I think this permission for Anglican converts to keep thier Anglican form Mass and certain Anglican customs is really just temporary for first generation converts. My guess is thier children and grandchildren will be assimilated into the Roman Rite. Thus, if there will soon be a substantial increase in Anglican-use parishes in the near future, in a generation or two, the numbers will once again be microscopic. However, I will say it may be Pope Benedict's intention for the Anglican-use Liturgy to have an impact and influence on the next full revision of the Novus Ordo that will probably begin under his papacy. It may turn out the next evolution of the Novus Ordo may be much much closer to the traditional Anglican liturgy than to the original Novus Ordo liturgy of 1970.

blackshama said...

According to the norms, I cannot be part of the Ordinariate since I was baptized as a Roman Catholic and have no family members who are Anglican. But since my grandma on the father's side went to Episcopalian services, I was essentially raised as an Episcopalian but not being formally part of that church. It was only on my 21st year (as an adult of legal age) when I decided to be confirmed by the Catholic Military Bishop since at that time I was in the service and my father was a soldier. The Military bishop just gave me a Catholic Catechism to prayerfully study and reflect on prior to confirmation after he interviewed me and that he learned I was really an Anglican of the Catholic persuation!

I could receive the sacraments in the military ordinariate then and now being part of a family of soldiers and being once a soldier. But if I decide to join an Anglican Ordinariate, there might be a chance I couldn't be part of it since my grandma was the only Episcopalian in the family and has long passed away and I was not baptized in that church. She left me her 1928 BCP which has been a source of comfort for me. In short I am REALLY PART of the Anglican tradition. And like the Venerable John Henry Newman, Roman Catholicism did not make me Catholic, it was the Episcopal Church that did so!

I am sure that there are many Catholics in my situation. Perhaps Sir Knight can help us clarify our status. I did not really leave the Catholic Church as a child since a child cannot decide these things on his own.

Anonymous said...

If what Rafael is saying is true about this offer is just to get the Anglicans into the Church and sometime in the future to just absorb there liturgy and Anglican traditions, then he apparently is thinking that the Holy Fahter is being dishonest to say the least.

The Anglican Use has been around for over 28 years and is still growing slowly because of the liberal Bishops who were allowed to decide if there could be an AU parish in their diocese. This is no longer the rule. I believe that the way the Apostolic Constitution is written that this will be another Use within the Church for all time.

This might not answer Sir Knight's question, but I do know of one AU parish that in the beginning the Bishop would not allow Latin Rite Catholics to belong to the parish, they could attend but it couldn't be their parish, he has now changed that rule and any Catholic can become a member. I think in the future this will be the same rule for any Catholic. And I believe any former Anglican/Episcopalian will be allowed to be part of one of these parishes, no matter when they converted.

If in fact the Latin Rite becomes just like the Anglican Use, then what would be the problem at least for Anglicans? I don't believe that it will ever happen. There have always been different usages within the Church, although many are used only in very small areas.

The Apostolic Constitution will be there in the distant future for Anglicans in years to come to make a decision that their church is not Christ's Church and will come home to the Catholic Church.

We can only speculate how all this will turn out at this time, but hopefully it will follow what the Anglican Use/Pasoral Provison has done.

I know that the AU priests wanted many changes in the BDW, although they were allowed input into what it would be, Rome made the final decision. This time around I believe that it will be closer to what the first priests hoped for.

From what I have seen Benedict would rather have a liturgy more in line with the TLM than what is now the NO or an AU liturgy for those who use the Latin Rite. He appears to be slowly trying to bring back the reverence and teaching towards the Mass that was changed many years ago. When I use the term teaching, I don't imply that Rome was changing the teachings, but it opened the doors for liberal priests and Bishops to create new innovations.

The Catholic Knight said...


I have so far received one response from somebody within the know, and the only response I got from him is "we don't know yet." Apparently there are a whole lot of Catholics who currently find themselves in the EXACT SAME situation as you (and myself for that matter), and it is yet unclear as to what will happen.

Personally, I cannot imagine in my wildest dreams that Rome would lock us out of joining an Ordinariate if one is available to us, and that is what we truly want. It defies the whole purpose of the pope's gesture. Why should former Anglicans (even if just through association) be locked out of the Ordinariates solely because they were faithful enough to apostolic tradition to join a Church (the Catholic Church) at a time when the Anglican Communion was defying that very same apostolic tradition? Shall, former Anglicans (even just by association) be effectively "punished" because they were faithful? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Clearly this is something that's going to have to be hammered out in the months and years ahead. My source on the inside tells me he's been inundated with emails from Catholics in this exact situation. So I expect something to happen to clarify matters at some point. Right now they don't even have the Ordinariates set up, so I guess until they get to "first base" we can't expect much right now.

The Catholic Knight said...

Raphael, thank you for your thoughts, but I honestly could not disagree more. The idea of using the Apostolic Constitution to rope the Anglicans in, only to assimilate them later on is not consistent with the character of the Holy Father, or with charity itself. It would be a form of deception.

Secondly, every time we get a sneak peak at the liturgical reforms the Holy Father has in mind for the Novus Ordo mass, it is always a return to the classical Roman Rite tradition - akin to the "extraordinary form" currently celebrated in Latin. The Novus Ordo is an abbreviation of the Roman Rite, or at least it's supposed to be, and it's becoming more and more apparent that the Holy Father seems to frown on it's borrowing from the Anglican liturgy in the 1970 version. If anything, the Novus Ordo will become more "Tridentine" in it's form once the revisions are made public.

When it comes to the Anglican Use, and the subsequent Anglican Ordinariates, it seems clear that the pope is allowing for something to go in a totally different direction, hence the reason for the Ordinariates to overlap currently existing diocese. I have it from reliable source that a convention is planned among the Anglican Ordinariates sometime after they are set up and well established. This convention is to streamline business within the ordinariates, which will include a new revision of the Book of Divine Worship (BDW). This revision of the BDW is supposed to restore all things Anglican, drawing from it's deep treasury of liturgy going back some 600 to 700 years. In other words, it looks like they're going to try to "one up" the PAC's "Book of Common Prayer." Of course anything the Ordinariates do will have to be approved by Rome

If or when this happens, we can expect the Anglican mass to look considerably different from the Roman Rite in both it's traditional form, and it's new abbreviated form after the future revisions.

It's clear to me that the Anglican Ordinariates, and the "Reform of the Reform" of the Roman Missal, are going in two completely different directions. So, the Anglican Ordinariates are here to stay - for the long haul - and may at some point in the distant future develop into a full fledged Anglican Rite.

Matariel said...

To tell you the truth, I think the term "Anglican Catholic" should be dropped, since it's confusing, especially considering there is a Continuing Anglican body called the "Anglican Catholic Church". I think the term "English Catholic" should be used instead of "Anglican Catholic", thus differentiating a term which already has another definition.

The Catholic Knight said...

Matariel, I certainly have no problem with the term "English Catholic" and I agree that in some ways it makes more sense, however it's up to the bishops of Anglican Ordinariates themselves to decide.

I think it's also worth pointing out that the Protestant Anglicans do sometimes refer to their faith as "English Orthodoxy" though I'm sure the Eastern Orthodox would take serious issue with that.

I personally don't think this will be an issue within one or two generations, as the Anglican communion is imploding, while the continuum will soon be fractured itself, as more and more continuing Anglicans will either join the Catholic ordinariates or else move in an Evangelical direction. Let's face it, to practice catholicism is to eventually lead to Rome. The only way to avoid Rome entirely is to cease to practice catholicism entirely. The process may take decades, but it will eventually happen. Western Christianity is destined to be polarized between just two factions - the Catholics and the Evangelicals.

Anonymous said...

There will be no Anglican/English Catholics. There will be Catholics with an Anglican Use of the liturgy. I am sure their churches will have a sign that states St. Mary's Catholic Church (Anglican Use)or something very similar.

The Anglican Use Mass as of now Rite I, is a combination of the BCP 1928, NO Mass responses which the BCP 1979 took from the NO and several parts of the Sarum Use. Actually if you look up the Sarum Use, the Consecration prayers are almost identical to the Sarum Use.

When the BDW was written Rome inserted what they wanted, not necessarily want the AU priests wanted. They removed anything that was protestant. There are some lovely prayers that are very much Anglican.

I find the Anglican Use Mass much more reverent and in some ways Catholic than the NO Mass. In most parishes there is no peace given to one another, the priest conveys the peace to the congregation. There is no hand holding during the Our Father and people receive at the altar rail kneeling. The priests face ad orietem (sp). It is much closer to the TLM in some ways. It is very rich because they have wonderful music and everyone sings and no one leaves until after the last verse of the recessional.

I just pray that if they make changes they will go by one of the Missals with the additions to make sure it is purely Catholic in intent.

I attend a NO Mass, but the parish is traditional and the hymns are the same as when I was in the Episcopal church. I would still love to be able to attend an Anglican Use liturgy. I am looking forward to the changes in the NO Mass as they will be similar to the AU liturgy as far as the Creed and Gloria goes. The response to the priest will be almost the same too.

Let us hope that the parishes will abide by the changes.

blackshama said...

The Evangelicals will likely side with us Catholics versus the moral and cognitive relativists on matters pertaining to life and its inherent dignity. That is the polarization that will happen. Perhaps that is the Holy Spirit's intention. Laus Deo!

blackshama said...

The Evangelicals will likely side with us Catholics versus the moral and cognitive relativists on matters pertaining to life and its inherent dignity. That is the polarization that will happen. Perhaps that is the Holy Spirit's intention. Laus Deo!

The Catholic Knight said...

ATTENTION: All Roman Catholics who are considering future involvement in an Anglican Ordinariate, and are worried about not being able to join, Fr. Phillips (an Anglican Use priest) does an excellent job addressing these issues on his blog here -

Raphael said...

As I said, my opinion is uneducated, so you need to take my speculation with a grain of salt. However, both you and "Anonymous" #2 really misunderstood my comment about assimilation. In no way did I mean to imply there is some kind of Vatican conspiracy plot to rope in Anglicans. I meant due to the natural course of things. When the kids and grandkids of AU Catholics grow up, they will move to other cities and states...many that may not have an AU parish, so they will start joining regular Roman rite parishes. I live in the midwest USA, and in my state, the total number of Anglican/Episcapalian churches in the entire state is in the low double digits. Compare that to a typical city in my state that has double digit number of Catholic parishes...just one town, mind you. There really are no Anglican roots in this part of the country, so that is why I said an English rite would probably not happen. It may be a different story in the Northeast USA or in the UK or Australia. I hope I'm wrong...I would like to see an English rite, but I just don't think the demand will be there among traditional/orthodox Roman rite Catholics, who would be more likely to demand thier bishops stop interferring in thier right to have the Mass in the extraordinary form, or to petition Rome to revise the ordinary form to become more of a modified vernacular translation of the Tridentine Mass, than to request more English rite parishes.
What I found a bit disturbing though, is how you and Anonymous#2, upon reading my comment about assimilation, right away took it to mean some kind of deception by the Holy Father.

The Catholic Knight said...

Sorry for the misunderstanding Raphael. Hope I didn't offend.

You do raise a valid point, however, I think the exact opposite will happen. I think the number of Anglican Ordinariate parishes will grow in the years ahead, therefore making a greater availability to migrating children of current Anglican Catholics. I expect two things will facilitate this.

1.) Protestant converts tend to be very evangelistic - aggressively evangelistic in their outreach to non-Catholics. With an Anglican Catholic parish, you're looking at an entire parish that is made up of aggressively evangelistic members. That will bring in some growth.

2.) I still predict that a fairly large number of Roman Catholics will trickle into the Anglican Catholic parishes due to disgust with liberal teaching and liturgical abuses in their Roman Catholic parishes.

As these things happen, the number of Anglican Ordinariate parishes will likely grow (not shrink) in the years ahead, but then I really have no way to prove that, other then to just say let's wait and see.

Carlos said...

Will we see the Antiochian Orthodox Church expand the scope of its western rites and perhaps make overtures to Anglican Parishes as well?

Anonymous said...

I am sorry if I misinterpreted what Rafael meant. I meant no offense.

Once this gets off the ground I don't believe that anything will be able to stop any Catholic who choose to belong to an AU parish will be denied. The Ordinariates will be sympathic towards us and I am sure will direct any problems directly to Rome.

Raphael said...

Sir Knight, I do hope you will be proven correct, as I would like to see an English Rite become wide spread at least to the level of some of the Eastern Rites. But I doubt an English Rite would overtake the Roman Rite in the English speaking world. The other non-Roman Western Rites have very few members, but as I said, an English Rite could do as well as some of the Eastern Rites. As you said, we must wait and see.

blackshama said...

Sir Knight

Here is my blog post on how Anglicanorum Coetibus affects the Roman Catholic and Episcopal Churches in the Philippines.

Anonymous said...

As you know, the norm in Eastern Orthodox jurisdictions is celibate (and often historically widower) Bishops only, period. A married Orthodox man may seek ordination to the priesthood - but no higher. An Orthodox priest who's wife dies can *not* remarry, sometimes entering monastic life, though regrettably those with children sometimes return to the lay state.

My understanding is that this is the identical discipline followed by Eastern Catholic Churches in their original homelands, Ukraine, Romania etc. but not in the Americas and Western Europe (since circa 1922) where their presence was thought to give scandal to Catholics of the Latin Rite.

I think many current Anglicans considering movement into the Anglican use of the Latin rite will be perplexed if not totally put off by Rome's insistence on celibacy with 'exceptions' made on a case by case basis for already married clergy. Bottom line, the venerable 450 year Anglican tradition of married priests as a matter of course will not continue on in any version of Anglican Catholicism in communion with Rome. I'm not saying there won't be the exception here and there, but the deeply valued and loved patrimonial discipline of a married priesthood will be reserved for the occasional later convert, not for any young man that grows up in the Ordinariate.

Please correct me if I'm incorrect.

Example: Fr. X currently an Anglican priest with 3 young sons, can expect his sons to be either married laymen or celibate priests, none of them should realistically expect to be married priests -- as were their father, grandfather and great-grandfathers before them. What a shame!!!

I don't understand why married Eastern Catholic priests are the "norm" in Ukraine - surrounded by an Orthodox culture which expects (non-Monastic) priests to be married - but *not* in the UK (or the US) where vicars and rectors are married. If this is the unfortunate limitation placed on the Ordinariates ... then it is what it is.

If the Western Rite Orthodox can get their act together, they should grow by even greater leaps and bounds than the Ordinariate ... and for this very reason.

sign me - disappointed Episcopalian